If something isn’t right within an initiative, it’s likely that it wasn’t right from the start.

~ Jim Marshall

About Jim Marshall

Jim Marshall’s life-long work lies at the intersection of people and the organizations in which they work—and optimizing the synergy that fertile convergence holds. A Professor of Educational Leadership at San Diego State University, his scholarship, teaching, and consulting combine our understanding of human performance and organization development to assess strengths, devise strategies, and improve even the most vexing of challenges. 

With over 200 publications to his credit, Marshall’s scholarship encompasses a diverse range of works that include empirical research, program evaluation efforts, and policy development. His evaluation endeavors are particularly significant and include more than 250 individual studies of funded projects and program investments totaling over $120 million dollars. 

He serves as a thought partner to leaders seeking to hasten the collective impact of their organization’s investments. From assessing strengths and needs to conceptualize strategy and program initiatives and then measuring return on investment, Marshall’s unique approach relies on a proven mix of assessment and evaluation, appreciative inquiry, and empathic understanding that predictably yields quantifiable results. 

His book, Right from the Start: The Essential Guide to Implementing School Initiatives, summarizes lessons learned through the evaluation of hundreds of programs in both the public and private sectors.

What You’ll Find in this Educational Leadership Podcast Episode with Jim Marshall

Jim starts with his experience as the evaluator of initiatives and projects, which led him to write the book. He has been able to reflect on what school leaders could do differently at the start of initiatives, which would make all the difference in the long run. 

Jim calls for careful and thoughtful planning for initiatives so that when we get to the implementation phase we end up with a more predictable result. 

Joe asks about the balance between whether the initiative itself is the problem or the people who execute it. Don’t miss what Jim says about how people interface with the initiative. 

You want to hear what Jim says about his motivation equation: motivation = value * convince. He gives credit to Vroom through his expectancy theory. 

Jim argues that a “program” is like the tip of an iceberg while an “initiative” should be able to get to the deeper parts of the iceberg. 

We ask Jim to talk about dos and don’ts. Here’s what he says: 

• Do…try to understand the problem first. Talk to people to know more about what is going on. Don’t trust your own view as accurate of the current situation. 
• Do…use your needs assessment to create awareness and buy-in. 
• Do…make sure that the people can see themselves in the implementation and design. 
• Do…make sure to create a program evaluation process. Jim says that you’re probably already doing this informally; just formalize it to analyze the data. 
• Don’t…skip steps at the beginning of the planning phase or forget to evaluate the results. 
• Don’t…forget to develop defined outcomes. 

Jim follows Michael Fullan for knowledge and inspiration. He mentions Change Forces as a favorite. 

Jim recommends that we start by looking for bright spots in our work. He calls it “appreciative inquiry.” We typically look for things to fix, and that’s not always the best way to evaluate what works and what doesn’t. 

Jim wants to know why there’s not more knowledge and shared best practices among schools and outside organizations. Don’t miss what he says about the dissemination of best practices. 

He talks about his continued strategy for growth. He runs through the use of performance engineering.  

Jim used to think of evaluation as “gap analysis,” but now he looks for strengths first. 

Jim ends by saying that this work doesn’t have to be complicated. We couldn’t agree more!

The Leading Better & Growing Faster with Joe & T.J. Show

Let us know if there’s a guest who you want us to have on the show by leaving a comment below or by contacting us at [email protected]. And don’t miss our leadership content updates every week by subscribing to the site.

We can’t wait to hear from you. 

Joe & T.J. 

About Jennifer Abrams

Formerly a high school English teacher and a new teacher coach in Palo Alto Unified School District (Palo Alto, CA, USA), Jennifer Abrams is currently a communications consultant and author who works with educators and others on leadership development at all levels, effective collaboration skills, having hard conversations and creating identity safe workplaces.

 Jennifer’s publications include Having Hard Conversations, The Multigenerational Workplace: Communicate, Collaborate & Create Community, Hard Conversations Unpacked: the Whos, Whens and What Ifs, and Swimming in the Deep End: Four Foundational Skills for Leading Successful School Initiatives.  

 Her newest book, and the focus of this episode, is Stretching Your Learning Edges: Growing (Up) at Work. 

 Jennifer shares her work in other mediums as a featured columnist on growth and changes for Learning Forward’s The Learning Professional journal as well as contributing to The International Educator (TIE), focusing her writing on adult development and collaboration skills.

 Jennifer has been invited to keynote, facilitate, and coach at schools and conferences worldwide and is honored to have been named one of the “18 Women All K-12 Educators Should Know” by Education Week’s ‘Finding Common Ground’’ blog.  More about Jennifer’s work can be found at her website, www.jenniferabrams.com. and on Twitter @jenniferabrams.

What You’ll Find in this Educational Leadership Podcast Episode with Jennifer Abrams

Jennifer starts with the fact that “we speak to” being lifelong learners, but are we really living up to that? 

 What if we developed ourselves in ways that allowed us to respond rather than react? Listen to what she says about the typical response to feedback. 

 Joe asked why we have such trouble with a learning culture. Jennifer’s response is profound–time, being “done” as a learner, school leaders assuming that the adult is already good enough.

 You have to hear what she says about the difference between how teachers are given prep periods but not reflection periods. 

 T.J. asked about why educators often become defensive when given feedback or asked to make a change. Jennifer puts it simply: the system is not designed that way. We don’t have the apprenticeship-style learning that would induct us into the profession as a learner. 

 Jennifer talks about resiliency as working on our own emotional and psychological hygiene. Don’t miss what she says about Pigpen and how people can bring in a lot of dust.

 Education is complex. Listen to what she says about shifting from “teacher of record” to “a space of learning” and how it can have a huge void. 

 You want to know how to use the tool she describes to get people to check their energy when we start a meeting. 

 Jennifer follows Shane Parrish at Farnam Street. She also studies Jennifer Garvey Berger, Cultivating Leadership for adult learners.

 Pay attention to her leadership check-in questions that gauge relationship health, but can work well with a team. 

 Jennifer wants to learn how to cook better. But she wants to feel free to fail. Powerful statement.

 Three things to do to learn and grow as a leader: 

1. Find a conference and attend as a learner. 
2. Find a conference and apply to co-present with someone. 
3. If you’re interested in someone’s work, find them. Reach out to them. 

 Jennifer reveals that she has a cognitive crush on Peter Block, author of The Answer to How is Yes. 

 Lastly, Jennifer reminds us that you can get things done. Just go forth and do it.

The Leading Better & Growing Faster with Joe & T.J. Show

Let us know a topic that you want us to cover by contacting us at [email protected]. And don’t miss our leadership newsletter every week by subscribing to the site. Like, follow, share, and comment–we appreciate it!

We can’t wait to hear from you. 

Joe & T.J. 

How School Leaders Can View Problems as Possibilities To Improve Their Schools

In this episode, Joe and T.J. explore what it really means to mind your mental map. Our minds can be very scary places if we are not careful. School leaders must remain in a productive space in order to lead effectively, but the thread of events throughout the day and week can take its toll. This is why school leaders must do the following:

1. Flip Your Thinking
2. Don’t Jump to Judge
3. Adapt, Don’t Adopt

Key Points from Joe & T.J

T.J. starts the conversation on the crucial importance of being aware of the potential of living on Groundhog Day–experiencing the same set of events over and over.

Joe double-downs on some ChatGPT, unfinished learning, school climate, an increase in student discipline, the teacher shortage, and ESSER funds running out, and how we frame all of these circumstances in our minds is critical. Yes, they are problems, but where are the possibilities? We are firm believers that with the right approach, no problem is unsolvable. 

Take control of your thinking and flip it. Listen to T.J. talk about Tim Ferris and how he approaches an issue. 

• Innovation and analysis–think with your team.
• Don’t jump to judge–so easy to judge others by their actions and not intentions. 
• Adapt, don’t adopt–put an issue on its side.
• Perceptual illusion–what don’t you see?

The Leading Better & Growing Faster with Joe & T.J. Show

Let us know a topic that you want us to cover by contacting us at [email protected]. And don’t miss our leadership newsletter every week by subscribing to the site. Like, follow, share, and comment–we appreciate it!

We can’t wait to hear from you. 

Joe & T.J.